Poll: Should We Invest More Money in Caltrain, BART or Buses?

TM July 30, 2012 at 12:22 pm

We all love to ride on Caltrain and BART because there is no other traffic on their rails to slow their progress to the destination. But we all have seen some trendy shopping or housing development go in somewhere that these rail routes do not serve. That's where buses can be flexible for future needs at very little additional cost. BART? $350mil a mile to build. Caltrain? $500mil+ to electrify, and no new stops. Talk has been made of making a 1.5 mile Caltrain underground link into San Francisco, but we can imagine that would cost $2bil+, and climbing. Not to mention the time 'process' to actually start building anything physical. Buses? Just tell the driver to make a left turn tomorrow and you're there.

Jennifer van der Kleut July 30, 2012 at 12:59 pm

I'm torn - Caltrain is better for long-distance commuters, but buses are great for local transportation. Can't really take Caltrain if you only need to go a mile or two. Wish we could find a way to fund both.

commuter July 30, 2012 at 01:08 pm

This is a false argument. The debate should be public transportation vs. more roads and highways. Improving public transit of all kinds reduces the need for new and expensive roads and highways.

Susan Swope July 30, 2012 at 01:15 pm

We need a network that interconnects to allow us to efficiently and easily get wherever we need to go on public transportation the way you can in Europe. Just one mode of transportation is not going to achieve that.

M Z July 30, 2012 at 01:32 pm

My vote is bus service. My neighborhood has 1 bus that goes to a high school that has not been a neighborhood high school for over 12 years - hello! SamTrans - route 140. There is not a bus from my neighborhood to the "new" neighborhood high school - hello Samtrans. The bus is great for getting into Pacifica, going to and from Skyline College, getting to BART / Tanfran, and if you have a middle school student - to middle school and back. But the bus does not take you to Caltrain like it used too (when the station was under 380) and there used to be a bus (141 that is still around but the route is not above Skyline) that took you to the senior center / park / pool. My neighborhood is missing finished sidewalks - they just stop - we are cut off by Skyline Blvd (wouldn't it be nice to have bike lanes, sidewalks and cross walks). We have a great local grocery (Lunardi's) but again....

Joe Mendoza July 30, 2012 at 03:06 pm

I agreed with those who say we need all three. BART & Caltrain are good for long distances and high density corridors, and buses are good for local distribution and low density destination.

Alan Dale Brown July 30, 2012 at 03:18 pm

I believe in investment in all three, although Buses tend to get less investment. The trick with bus service is that it needs to be frequent enough to be useful; sometimes, the less frequent the buses, the more empty they will be, due to people not seeing it as viable. Also, there's the (not entirely incorrect) perception of buses being dirty.
Short of a bigger budget, it's not easy for transit agencies to decide which bus routes to support. I'd use the Dumbarton Express - if it didn't stop service at 6 p.m. I've heard it's a rather unprofitable line as is.

Susan Swope July 30, 2012 at 03:31 pm

I use BART from Millbrae to go into San Francisco. I drive to Millbrae. I'd use Caltrain to get to Millbrae if the two schedules were better coordinated. I don't use the buses, because they can't get me where I want to go in a reasonable time. What takes 15-20 minutes to drive can take an hour on the bus. Too much of a time sink.

Kathy July 30, 2012 at 04:01 pm

Agree with Susan. The schedules really need some work.

Reality Check July 30, 2012 at 04:37 pm

The insanely oversold and stupid agreement SamTrans entered into for the BART Millbrae/SFO extension has damn near bankrupted SamTrans. It wasn't fantastic service before the BART/SFO financial debacle ("the gift that keeps on taking"), but you can thank the financial basket case that the BART/SFO extension is for the worse than ever SamTrans "service" we now "enjoy."
For more info see: Caltrain deficit may hit $40m; BART debt eats half of Samtrans tax http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BATN/message/45151 More madness: huge opportunity cost of Millbrae BART extension http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BATN/message/43217 BART SFO/Millbrae cost SamTrans over half a billion dollars http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BATN/message/43090 Divorce from BART over SFO disaster still costing SamTrans dearly http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BATN/message/43087 What did Millbrae/SFO BART cost San Mateo Co. and SamTrans? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BATN/message/43086

Reality Check July 30, 2012 at 04:43 pm

Thank ex-Sen. Quentin Kopp for the extreme screwed-upness of the Caltrain connection to SFO via BART. See also:
Cheap, old Caltrain-SFO van beat new BART shuttle http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BATN/message/18291

commuter July 30, 2012 at 04:53 pm

I've never had trouble quickly transferring from Caltrain to BART. In fact, I've heard people complain that the schedules are too well coordinated since if they forgot to buy BART tickets in advance, the time to buy tickets can cause them to miss the train.
Obviously, since BART stops at Millbrae at least 3 times per hour even during off-hours and off-hours Caltrain only stops once per hour, then there is no way around having some BART people wait some amount of time for Caltrain.

Reality Check July 30, 2012 at 05:03 pm

@commuter, how often do you take Caltrain to/from SFO, and at what times?
Have you yet enjoyed the well-designed connection that requires Caltrain riders to transfer to a BART train headed to Tanforan/San Bruno, detrain, wait for BART train going back the way you just came to get to SFO? Compare that to what Kopp made sure would not happen: loop SFO people mover out to a single multimodal SFO BART/Caltrain/SamTrans station on the west side of 101. A quick *single* transfer for all transit riders to/from the super frequent, free-to-ride, operating 24/7/365 airport people mover to reach *all* SFO terminals.

Alan Dale Brown July 30, 2012 at 05:09 pm

From the Peninsula south of the airport, the KX bus has generally been a far better way to get to the airport than the Caltrain/BART combo.
- No switching; elimination of transfer time means the bus is a lot faster. - Stops at more convenient locations - Far cheaper. I was excited years ago when I tried out the Caltrain/BART combo to the airport. Then I took it. For certain things, a bus is far more efficient; costs taxpayers a lot less money, too.

John Murphy July 30, 2012 at 07:13 pm

Alan - technically you are not allowed to bring luggage on the KX

Alan Dale Brown July 30, 2012 at 07:42 pm

South of SFO, it is OK to take luggage. The policy is that luggage is not allowed north of SFO. See:
http://www.samtrans.com/riderinformation/KXLuggagePolicy.html

Reality Check July 30, 2012 at 09:39 pm

Agreed, the KX is by far the best and cheapest ($2 local fare) SFO transit option from south of SFO. I've started several international trips (with luggage -- which is allowed south of SFO) using the KX.
Unfortunately, SamTrans has cut the KX base frequency to hourly ... which really sucks if you arrive at the SFO SamTrans bus stop shortly after missing a southbound departure. The luggage restriction between SF and SFO is due to a law that was passed that has the effect of prohibiting transit from competing with private/commercial airport bus services between SF and SFO. South of SFO is OK because there are no such privete/commercial airport bus services to compete with in San Mateo Co. It apparently doesn't affect Caltrain or BART ... I assume because there are no private/commercial trains between SF and SFO.

Mark Taylor July 30, 2012 at 11:18 pm

I like taking Caltrain but fixed rail systems are limited by their tracks. Buses are more cost efficient in the long run since that are not limited by tracks (unless they are electric trolleys then they are limited). I take by Caltrain and SamTrans but SamTrans allows me to go places that Caltrain will not unless I am prepared for some very long walks!

Mike July 31, 2012 at 01:09 am

Extend BART to San Jose. If we have BART running to San Jose and a decent bus transit system that can act as a feeder for BART and serve the other transit needs of the county (which Sam Trans does a pretty good job at now) we'd have a pretty good transit system serving San Francisco, as well as San Mateo, Santa Clara and the East Bay Counties as well.. Let’s shut down Cal Train and get the State out of the railroad business here on the Peninsula.

Reality Check July 31, 2012 at 01:15 am

Fixed guideway (trains on rails) is better and more cost efficient for some corridors and ridership load/demand profiles and buses for others. As mentioned before ... any decent transit network in a large, relatively dense built up metro region (such as the Bay Area) will consist of both. Bus and rail each play an important and, with proper system/route/schedule design, complementary role.
Dedicated right-of-way trains excel in moving quickly and extremely safely through high traffic, high-congestion areas (e.g. subways) with high ridership demand. They also generally excel in longer distance trips across congestion plagued areas with few stops and very competitively high average speed. Buses definitely play a role for all kinds of routes and demand profiles that it would be prohibitively expensive or technically impossible/infeasible (e.g. Emerald Hills, low-density/demand residential areas, etc.) to serve using rail.

Reality Check July 31, 2012 at 01:30 am

The multi-billion dollar BART SJ extension is in the pipeline and has been responsible for preventing transit rail service connecting Fremont BART to SJ much sooner. (BART has an enormous opportunity cost because it is built just about expensively as Americas Finest Transit Professionals and Construction Contractors are able). Feeding the BART obsession is also the reason why Dumbarton Rail is not up and running as well as the Fremont/Union City-to-SJ Caltrain-like service that was already funded and in the pipeline back around 2000.
Samtrans does a "pretty good job now" is hilarious. Compared to what? @Mike, you need to travel more or something. Samtrans has been on a sharp downhill slide ever since it touched the BART tar baby. Dig deep holes in the ground, fill them with cash, and then keep repeating. To make up for it, BART's fares are high and they charge an $8 surcharge for any round trip involving the SFO station ... but hey, it's still a money-sucking pit. (That's what you get when know-nothing politicians push pet projects and project designs instead of listening to transit advocacy groups filled with wonks who live and breathe transit ... and actually use it on a regular basis!) Also, @Mike is mistaken. While the "Caltrain" name came from earlier state (Caltrans) involvement in managing Caltrain, the state ended its involvement with running Caltrain in July of 1992.

Anurag July 31, 2012 at 05:31 pm

My vote is for bus service.
My best commuting years were using the FX from Foster City to SF and back. Awesome schedule and comfortable ride!! Sam Trans - Please bring it back!

Mark Taylor August 1, 2012 at 12:50 pm

Rails have their use and certainly can move large amounts of people from San Jose to San Francisco. But buses better serve within cities and between them as they can go places the rails cannot. The reason passenger rail faded in this country was that it was easier to drive (or fly) than take the train. And they are more expensive per mile than buses. Caltrain is good for moving lots of people between San Jose and San Francisco but a good bus service that works with it will probably haul just as many people for short and medium trips.
About SamTrans 140. I take this bus several times a week. It is the only bus that goes to El Camino and San Bruno Bart (the 121 goes the other direction) from where I live. There is no direct connection to San Bruno Caltrain (when the station was by the 380 underpass some years ago the 140 stopped nearby). But when the Sylvan Station and Bart were done, the nearest 140 stop was at Green & San Bruno (by the wash and fold). A short walk then but now the temporary station is much further south so it is a 15-20 minute walk. I usually go to Millbrae to catch the train (a 2 zone ticket gets free rides on SamTrans).

gc August 2, 2012 at 06:20 pm

We should invest in bike paths that connect SF and the peninsula and allow cyclists to safely get from place to place without having to drive or ride a train/bus. This would be relatively cheap and more sustainable and forward-looking. Ideally, bikes/cars could be on separate roads as putting them together seems to incite road rage. Fund it with an increase in the gas tax!